- Both offer great leadership development. I have never been a Marine Officer, so I can't really compare. I will say that we have a lot more diversity in our careers than our Marine bretheren. This can be vital in developing a leader who can function across many levels. I also like that we have many opportunities to go into Functional Areas or pursue programs that will put us through some top level graduate education. I would assume that the USMC has a few similar programs, but I doubt that have as many or those that have the scope that ours do.
- I would say this is about even. A lot of this falls on the unit. I have a few Marine friends and they seem to enjoy a very similar lifestyle to Army Officers.
- I would go with the Army here. We have a larger force and our assignments can vary greatly over a career. We have many branches that have a need for more Captains, Majors, and Lieutenant Colonels than they need Lieutenants. This can open some huge doors.
- The Army is working to shorten deployments to 9 months, which will be the same as most Marine units. With the OPTEMPO slowing a bit, many units are not deployming as frequently. I will say, at the height of both wars.....the Marines seemed to deploy more frequently.
- It is about even here too. Both are going to have rockstars and both are going to have the bottom of the barrel.
- I have not looked at the USMC for this, but the Army has incredible opportunities for this. There are many programs that will help a Soldier pursue graduate education. Some are branch-specific. Some are in conjunction with a Functional Area. Some are meant for all Officers. There are even programs for Officers to pursue legal, nursing and PA education if they wish. We have a prorgram will send Officers to Harvard for a degree. I am working on a MBA right now and will pursue an Engineering degree at the Army's expense during CCC.
Another consideration: In the Army, we have opportunities to attend schools that the Marines drool over. Some of these are: Sapper, Ranger, Airborne, Air Assault, Pathfinder, Dive, and many other courses that Marines rarely get the opportunity to attend.
As far as the branches you are interested in:
- Aviation: The Marines can guarantee you this option, the Army can not. Primarily, we have rotary wing aviation
- Engineers: We have MUCH, MUCH more Engineering assets than the Corps. Over a career and Engineer Officer can see some incredible opportunities. If you have questions....ask! I am an Engineer Officer. I love this branch.
- Intel: We have a lot more Intel too.
- Infantry: We have more and this branch is serious. It is the cream of the crop and one of the most competitive branches to get into. Almost every Infantry Officer will go to Airborne and Ranger immediately after IBOLC. I will address Spec Ops below.
- Signal: Once again, we have a lot more of these officers....and two Functional Areas associated with the branch that any officer can apply for. There are huge opportunities for development as a Signal Officer.
- Special Ops: The Marines have MARSOC. We have Special Forces, Rangers, AWG, the 160th SOAR, CA/MISO, NWG, and a few others. If you want Spec Ops....the Army is definitely the place to be....we have a variety of opportunities that can provide a great opportunity for all types of Soldiers based on their talents and motivation. If Spec Ops is a goal, you can do it from any branch and we have the most opportunity for it.
If you have any questions....feel free to ask.
If you don't mind that I'm a prior service officer from a different branch, I'll chime in.
I think you'll find that the overall responsibility of an officer will be similar between all the services, it's the mission that will be different.
I assume that you are talking about OCS.
In the Army OCS you will be on an OML (Order of Merit List) The higher you are on the list the better chance you have at getting the branch you want, but in the end it comes down to the needs of the Army in the selection process.
I noticed you put Aviation first on your list. If this is your first choice you might consider Warrant Officer Flight Training for the Army. You can apply as a civilian for the program. In the Army Warrants will fly further into their career as apposed to commissioned officers who at a point will be in more staff positions.
Infantry is another branch that is harder to get. Intel would be next, then engineers, Signal would be much easier to get.
You will get great leadership skills from either branch. As far as taking care of your family,all the branches are equal in this regard in my opinion.
Each service has great support for families.
As far as promotion you touched on the key words....merit and skill, you'll need that in either service. If I had to choose I would say the Army may have the edge.
Deployments depend on what is going on in the world, if you are a Marine Aviator you could find yourself at sea on a carrier. If your an Army aviator and there is no deployment in your future you will not be gone as much. Time away will depend on your branch within the service and the mission they have at the time. There is no way to predetermine how long you might be away.
Both services have some of the hardest working individuals.
I would probably say the Army has the edge when it comes to continuing education, though I came to learn that if you ask for it, they tend to do what they can to accomidate you no matter which service.
I know a lot of the answers were a bit vague but realize that first and foremost your looking to be an officer in the US Military, you just need to decide which mission you want to pursue.
Thank you for your thorough and quick reply. I found this very informative and motivating. To be honest, in working with Army recruiters I have been less than impressed and poorly informed. I have been lied to by quite a few recruiters.
I am glad that you are in an Engineering MOS because I think that might offer me my greatest opportunity. I have a few questions related to that mos.
1. I currently work for a civil engineer as a project manager. I have been learning autoCAD and some basic survey techniques. Will there be opportunities as an officer to learn autoCAD and get a drafters or surveyors certificate? Based on your post I assume there are also opportunities for me to persue an engineering degree?
2. What engineering careers are available for a 2nd LT? If selected I am leaning towards combat engineer as I would like to attend Ranger and or Sapper school as well as dive school (if that is also an option). What are the "in demand" sectors?
3. What's a day in the life of an Army officer in this field? Deployments, duty stations, etc?
4. Special Forces has been a goal of mine since I was a youth. Are engineering officers eligible to attend SFAS when a 1st LT ? I enjoy opportunity and would like the option to remain open. I understand most people go infantry before making this a career, however I think an engineering foundation would offer me more flexibility and a unique edge when it comes to skills and leadership. Combat engineers, after all, serve alongside infantry but also learn some engineering skills to boot.
Once again your help is appreciated. Thanks.
Thank you for your reply. I know a bit about the Marine officer pipeline, but not so much the Army's. What happens at BOLC? What skills are taught and who does the training? I am assuming there is plenty of mentoring and solid leadership training occuring, but I am curious about the specifics from someone who has been there. Thanks.
Maybe my googling needs help, but I was able to find a website dedicated to prospective Marine officers that has videos, interviews and extensive job descriptions. It is pretty informative. I haven't found one for the Army. Does anyone know of a site like this for prospective Army officers?
Yes I am referring to OCS when speaking of becoming an officer.
- There are options to further your engineer education. This can range from certifications to graduate degrees. GIS is a very hot field right now for the Army. Most of the surveyors and AutoCAD users are enlisted, but this does not stop an Officer from furthering their education in these fields. I would not stress education in the Army at all....trust me when I say that there are more than ample opportunities. Often, the only limitation is you.
- Dive is an option. It's hard to get, but very much an option. The Army actually have an Engineer specific dive course. What makes it so hard to get is that there are very few dive units. Sapper or Ranger may be an option straight out of Engineer BOLC or from your unit. My unit expects me to go to Sapper...it's just a matter of time. Many are able to earn slots during BOLC by attending additional PT and getting solid grades in their courses. Airborne and Air Assault are also fairly common out of EBOLC. Engineer Officers may also see courses like Engineer Ordnance Clearing Agent, Route Recon and Clearance Course, other advanced Engineering schools(numerous), and a number of other course like Unit Movement, etc. As an Officer, I would expect a shot at Sapper if you want it. Sometimes it takes a little patience.
- For Engineers...this is varied to say the least. We have Sapper units, Clearance units, MAC's, Vertical Construction, Horizontal Construction, Survey, Geospatial, Facilities units....plus we can be assigned to many different staff-type positions. This means that our daily life, field time and deployments can vary from really exciting missions involving a lot of demo to vital staff jobs which keep the Army moving and working. The Engineer branch is so diverse and an Engineer Officer can be assigned to lead any type of Engineer unit. That is a major advantage for us. It is hard to get bored, when you have such a diverse career.
- Any Officer can attend SFAS, regardless of branch, provided that they meet the basic eligibility requirements. Frankly, I think that being an Engineer sets an Officer up for a successful career in SF. Most would say that Infantry or Armor/Cav is best. I disagree. We are trained on most of the same tasks that Infantry Officers are. We also are taught how to plan and lead complex missions that may involve many different elements and a lot of interunit work. We also are the branch that catches the most diverse mission set. Due to this, Engineer Officers often are used to working through highly complex mission sets that require a strong command of maneuver warfare and Engineering doctrine. This ability to think and work in a combat role should prove to be greatly helpful in pursuing Special Forces. I am confident that IF I decide to pursue SF(I want to, but I am getting a bit old), my training and experience as an Engineer will be a great asset...even when compared to my Infantry and other branch peers. Engineers can also work in SF Support roles as 2LT's!
- I am going to answer the BOLC question you posed to jcleppe.....There are two types of BOLCs: BOLC A and BOLC B. BOLC A is your commissioning source....in your case it is more likely that this will be OCS. BOLC B is branch specific. This is where you will learn the basic aspects of your assigned branch. Your training would go like this if you went through OCS:
- BCT: this is where the Army differs greatly from the USMC. We send all OCS candidates that are NOT prior service through BCT. This permits our OCS to be a leadership development and assessment school and not have to focus on training candidates on the basic Soldiering skills expected of every Soldier in the Army.
- Branch BOLC: This will be where you will learn the basics of your selected branch. For Engineers, we will spend time learning everything from demo, to bridging, to vertical construction, to geospatial, to horizontal construction, to mission planning, etc. The Marines will send many of their Officers through Army BOLC for certain branches: Armor and Field Artillery come to mind.
- Any follow-on training: This may be an earned slot or a required slot based on branch and/or assignment. Infantry will go to Airborne and Ranger(more than likely). An Engineer heading to a Clearance Company, may go to R2C2. Orndance Officers may go to EOD school if they volunteer. An Engineer Officer may go to Sapper School for being near the top of their class. A Chemical Officer heading to a Recon unit may attend Stryker Recon school.
- Assignment to a unit
- Any training required by the unit: Air Assault if assigned to the 101st Airborne, Sapper if assigned to mine(and the BN finds us freakin slots), Bradley Leaders course for Officers assigned to a Brad unit
Frankly.....training and education should NOT be a concern if you are coming Army...nor should Special Operations. These are all very distinctly possible if you want them. There are more than ample opportunities. I have zero worries. It's not something that very few get. It is something very openly promoted amongst Officers. I have permission from my Chain of Command to find as many courses as I can and network to find better opportunities to attend these courses(outside of waiting on the TEC to approve the request). I also am having no issue furthering my education. I have spoken with a recruiter from a Spec Ops unit THIS WEEK and have worked a plan to apply next year once I have met a specific requirement. None of this took me much effort. I am not begging for opportunities. I am asking what is possible and being given multiple options.
[address removed by filter due to AAS Policy]
On YouTube search the following terms:
- Army OCS
- EBOLC (for Engineer BOLC)
- Engineer BOLC
- BOLC (will bring up a lot of other branches so you can see)
- IBOLC (for Infantry)
- Sapper School
- Ranger School
Unfortunately, the Army does not have a great comprehensive website like the USMC that is targetted at Officer Recruitment. There are portions of the GoArmy.com website that do show the basics. Frankly, I think you can get a more candid view by reviewing YouTube. Most classes will post their videos on YouTube so that they can brag.
Once again thanks for the good information. I like the variability and opportunity you are discussing. I agree with you on engineering making a quality SF candidate. That was my gut reaction to the question as engineering often has you thinking on your feet to solve complex problems. Add a little combat training into that and you have a deadly combination. Just wasn't sure how often that happened, but from what you are saying anything is possible if you want it and ask for it...pending abilities and needs of the Army of course.
Since it sounds like you went through this training not terribly long ago, I would like to know what I should be doing at this stage of entering a military career. I have a near completed Army ap and will be submitting my final package for an October board. I want to be as competative as possible. Are there some things I should study and learn now in order to make my transition more effective? What factors are involved in reaching the top of your respective class?
p.s. can you send pm's in this forum?
Here is the one thing that seems to work for getting courses: Don't ask "Can I".....ask "What can I do to XXX" and if they say it's not possible, ask " what if I..." Often the knee-**** reaction is to say "no" but there are ways. Often you have to do a favor for them or you have to help them sell the idea to higher commands. My Commander likes to say...you may get stuck going to Unit Movement Officer or something that is boring to negotiate for something fun. For our high-speed courses.....we basically show them that we deserve it more than other units by having high PT scores, and we do train-ups to show that we are ready and more likely to succeed when compared to Soldiers from other units. They are likely to send a Soldier that is a lower risk for failure to the tough courses. We show that we are the best selection because we have trained harder than the actual course standards. The Army hates to waste money and so far this approach is working well. In BOLC, you will get a briefing on what schools slots are possible and what it will take to go. Sometimes, you can work something out through your branch to attend some training. Trust me....there are always options. One caveat...don't expect to go to underwater basket-weaving if your unit can not substantiate the need to send you....you may get lucky.....but if it is not related to your unit's mission or can not be sold as professional development; it is hard to get them to approve it. However, it never hurts to ask...you may get lucky. I may be able to head to underwater basket weaving despite the fact that my unit has no divers. It's going to take a bit of luck on my side...but I actually know whose door to knock on. Sometimes, you just get lucky.
For your packet, I recommend:
- Find people to write letters of recommendation that can quantify your leadership abilities. It's one thing for someone to say that you are a great leader. It's a whole other thing for them to say that you are a great leader that raised productivity by 23% and increased output by 12%. Numbers or examples of exceeding a standard will always set a stronger tone than pleasantries.
- A good PT score really matters. Nothing under 250. 270+ should be your goal. You will find that there are Officers who score lower, but Candidates are going to be put through their paces. A higher PT score shows that you are ready for the task.
- A good GPA....may be too late for this, but if your GPA is a bit lower....be ready to discuss this and convence them that despite this you are better than the guy who has the 4.0.
- Wear a suit to your interview. No wild colors. Look for a conservative power tie. I like two color, diaganol striped ties that have very conservative but bold colors. I usually wear a dark grey suit, crisp white shirt and a power tie. It shows a certain traditional and conservative appearance that seems to really appeal to most corporate and government work
For OCS success(for getting as high on the OML as possible)....note: I did not go to OCS....I was an in-service Direct Commissionee:
- PT score can be HUGE
- Study and get good grades
- Lead by example and from the front
- Admit when you make a mistake
- delegate and follow up when you are in leadership
- when in a leadership position, remember that your mission and your troops come before you
- take care of your classmates
- don't make excuses....even when you have a valid one
- learn, learn, learn.
- ask for help when you need it, but help others when they do
- when getting evaluated during lanes, ask for further improvement points when they give you your grade
Thanks for the advice. Didn't know you could DC if you not were not law, medical or chaplain.
A little more on my situation: I am 26 and have three kids at home. I finished college in 08' with a 3.4 gpa. I will probably be on the older end of the spectrum and that's fine with me. My package is nearly complete. I haven't PT'd yet, but I am aiming above 270. The pushups are there, the situps and run are coming along and I expect to meet my goals by an October 18th deadline. My interview attire is always conservative and I have real world managerial and leadership experience, not just college credits and a fancy piece of paper. Letters of rec come from two college professors, one USMC Lt. Col and a retired Police Captain. Working on one from my current employer, a Civil Engineer. I also have to take a formal ASVAB before my package is final. Goal one is getting there, goal two will be to be best in the class, which will be aided by your OCS advice.
I have a USMC packet in the works too, but I put it on hold due to problems in the Department of the Navy budget and the infrequency of boards. USMC was my first choice, but my wife was concerned about the quality of life for our family; she thinks USMC is all yelling all the time. The Army is accepting OCS candidates at a more frequent pace. I was concerned about the espirit de corps of the Army and its options and opportunities, however your posts have clarified that for me. I love the USMC and I have had many relatives and friends serve in the Marines, but if the Army wants me first I will serve proudly and faithfully. It sounds like it offers a great career opportunity for the determined.
I noticed somewhere that you have a similar background to me; married with two kids. May I ask how the transition was for you and your family? Not sure how old you are, but I am 26 and my kids are just below school age. I am trying to mentally prepare my family for the future and detail a financial path while a Jr. Officer.
The irony is that the military will be a better and more liberating life for my family. The civilian sector has been cut throat, and I normally work 50+ hours a week, come home tired, frustrated and unhappy and have no benefits to show for it. My wife knows it and my kids can sense it. I would be much happier serving in the military, where I can get excited over what I am doing, make my family proud, and finally satiate the military itch I have carried with me since I was at least 10 or 11. I understand that the Army is what you make of it. Your posts indicate that to me. Failure is not an option to me and I am excited about the options for the future. Thanks for helping clarify the opportunities in the Army with your posts.